Jlserr, la medicion de ph se hizo conla mezcla de vinagre, kalk, agua y en efecto solo se midio el PH por el momento por que lo que estoy haciendo apartir de ayer es en adicionar esta mezcla por una semana en un tanke alterno para saber que tanto agrega de calcio en ese periodo de tiempo, se midio el ph, kh y calcio del tanke y diario se mediran estos factores. al mismo tiempo en otro tanke se pondra kalk sin vinagre por el mismo periodo de tiempo y se haran las pruebas pertinentes para determinar , el nivel de calcio en cada tanke y en cual aunmento con mayor raidez o si permanecio igual. Aun que en papel es decir mediante formula esto si debe aunmentar la cantidad de calcio que en teroria agregamos al acuario
saludos nuevamente: Alex Q, el experimento es la mejor manera de que te des cuenta de como va a reaccionar o como sera el desarrollo de ese tanque alterno, te pido por favor que cuando notes alguna diferencia nos la comentes, por otra parte, quisiera preguntarle a Manu, hace cuanto tiempo que disuelves tu kalk con vinagre? por que por las fotos de tu tanke no creeo que te este perjudicando, ya que tienes unos ejemplares de lujo, o que diferencias notaste al empezar a hacer esto. gracias ricardod
hola a to2 este experimento lo hice fuera del tanque, y fui agregando tanto vinagre hasta llegar al ph que en teoria sale del reactor para ver que sucedia. en teoria obtube un reactor de calcio "digital" fue hecho con los digitos de la mano ( pesimo chiste adly: ) no se como lo ven? es un reactor manual, la solucion solo tienen que agregar por goteo y en cantidades suficientes como en el reactor. saludos
Complementando, el fin de semana hago pruebas y mido el calcio que se obtiene de cada una. haber que si vale la pena o no. creo que el teacher ( gw shark) no nada por estos foros. le envie un email con la tematica y esto fue lo que me contesto. espero no violar ninguna regla o teacher que no te enfades por compartir el conocimiento. DEM > tanque principal > ca: 200 (salifert test) > kh: 19.21 dkh (la motte test) > po4: .25/.5 (hagen test) > ph 8.64 (pint point monitor) GW Algo alto de fosfatos, algo bajo de calcio, pero tu dKh te debe ayudar DEM > calcium reactor (korallin) > ca: 380/400 (salifert test) > kh: 37 dkh (la motte test) > ph: 6.64 (pint point monitor) > lts/hr : 0.50 lts > es normal el valor del kh de la salida del reactor que sea tan alto? GW Si, si es normal, te da alto porque mucho del medio (carbonato de calcio) no se alcanza a disociar completamente en calcio y carbonatos antes de salir del reactor DEM > se me ocurre esto > subir a 2 lts por hora y mantener a 6.5 /6.7 el ph de salida GW dos litros por hora lo que sale del reactor?? yo creo que seria demasiado DEM > lei un articulo acerca de usar vinagre en la solucion del kalk, que sabes de esto? GW No lo necesitas con tu reactor, solo te complicas la vida. Si quieres usar vinagre (o cualquier otro acido) entonces ahorrate el CO2... y si te ahoras el ZCo2, ya no tienes reactor de calcio cierto? DEM > hice las siguientes mediciones > a 2 lt. de agua dulce pH 7.89 le puse una cucharadita de kalk (Kent > marine kalkwasser mix) > resulto despues de24 hrs un ph 11.93 > segun entiendo, con este ph significa que la solucion esta saturada, cierto? GW si, esta saturada con Ca(OH)2 DEM > despues le agrege 100 ml de vinagre blanco de caña y bajo a 6.4, > disolviendose por completo la solucin de kalk. GW lo mismo hubiera pasado si agregas cualqueir otro acido (clorhidrico, sulfurico, citrico etc) DEM > me hace pensar lo siguiente > si la solucion de kalk la preparo con vinagre y la dejo en un ph de 8.00, > al estarse reponiendo y mezclarse con el agua de la pecera, bajare el ph a 8.3 y lo dejo de usar? GW Ahorrate el vinagre, ajsuta tu reactor, por otro lado, la medicion y cambio de pH no es asi tan linear, para empezar el pH es escala logaritmica, por lo que no baja lo mismo el pH con 10 mililitros de acido en un litro de agua que en 10 o 100 Segunda, en cuanto algo acido entre a la pecera empezaras a disolver la roca, lo cual te amortigua el cambio que ves en el pH, pero te juro que tus bichos lo van a sentir El KH es el que te ayuda a combatir el calcio al reaccionar calcio con fosfato y darte fosfato de calcio, insoluble al pH de la pecera, si le das acido, regresas el fosfato al agua... Juega con tu reactor, no con el acido Saludos COMO VEN? la verdad habia entendido que el acido acetico consumia phosphato, no que lo regresaba adly: saludos
Alex y demás interesados en el tema, porque no se ponen a leér un poco acerca de los artículos de Randy Homes Farley (que es un quimico super reconocido) y todo sobre lo que dice acerca del calcio y mezclarlo con vinagre?? Yo he leido bastante de eso y aunque al principio se siente medio raro hacer ese experimento, el resultado es muy bueno., saludos marco
saludos leopardshark: donde localizo los articulos del sr. Randy Homes Farley, por que si me intereza darle una buena leidita. gracias ricardod.
Hola a todos: He estado siguiendo este topic, y creo que sería bueno leer este artículo, yo he usado el Kalk en esta forma durante seis mese aprox. y no creo haber tenido efectos adversos; pero revisenlo y salgan un poco de dudas. :dance: KALKWASSER | IN DEPTH (reprinted with Breefcase's permission from works written in reefs.org) When Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser) is slowly dripped into your aquarium, it captures free Carbon Dioxide present in the tank water and converts it to Bicarbonate ions (which is a good thing), like this: Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(CO2) <==> Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) If you drip too fast or if there is not enough Carbon Dioxide available in the water, your shiny new Bicarbonate ions will be converted to Carbonate ions (a bad thing), like this: Ca++ + 2(OH-) + 2(HCO3-) <==> Ca++ + 2(CO3--) + 2 H2O The Carbonate ions formed will make the Ca++ you are trying to add to your tank get wasted by the useless precipitation of Calcium Carbonate -- the white stuff you are seeing. So, too rapid addition of Kalk may actually cause the Calcium and Alkalinity in your tank to go DOWN instead of UP (a bad thing), like this: Ca++ + 2(HCO3-) + Ca++ + 2(OH-) <==> 2 CaCO3 + 2 H2O In the above reaction, a Calcium ion and two Bicarbonate ions from the aquarium combine to form solid calcium carbonate -- the white stuff you are getting in your tank, which is really just a kind of sand. This can happen even with a slow drip of Kalk if there is not enough CO2 in your water -- something you can't easily control. To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water. 15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank. Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things. First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions. Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder. Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing). Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it. By the way, you should check your pH before and after you do this the first few times to make sure it is not affected by the process. It should not be a problem. Also, if you don't already have them, get and learn to use Salifert test kits for Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The levels of all of these are related and affected by dripping Kalk. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The advice not to mix the Kalk too much is right on target. As the equations I posted show, if you are not using any Vinegar in the mix you certainly DO need to avoid mixing the Kalk powder with CO2 until AFTER it's dripped into the tank. Look again at the equations. Both the GOOD reaction that liberates useful Calcium ions (Ca++) into your tank, and the BAD reaction that wastes the Calcium ions as solid Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), require the addition of different amounts of CO2. The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2. If your mixing container contained ample CO2, i.e., enough to fully react all the Kalkwasser as Bicarbonate ions, you would indeed then want to do all the mixing with CO2 right there in the container. It's only because there's not enough CO2 present in the small container that you need to limit the mixing to avoid precipitation. So, you've actually hit on one good reason WHY we want to add the Vinegar to the mixing container -- the Acetic Acid in the Vinegar provides the equivalent of enough CO2 to take the reaction all the way to the desired end products for which we drip Kalk -- that is, to produce free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions in solution in our tanks. By using enough Vinegar, we can mix to our heart's content right in the container, and don't need to worry as much about dripping the solution slowly into the tank. We have already driven the reaction all the way to the desired outcome, and provided ample CO2 to produce a balance of free Calcium ions and free Bicarbonate ions. This, incidentally, is why Kalk is said to be "ionically balanced" - it produces a one-to-one balance between Calcium and Alkalinity. By the way, the "stoichiometric" amount of Vinegar, i.e., that amount that provides the exact equivalent of enough CO2 to react all the Kalk powder to Calcium and Bicarbonate, turns out to be about 25ml of 5% Acetic Acid per liter of saturated (0.02 moles/liter or 1.5 grams/liter) aqueous Calcium Hydroxide solution (Kalkwasser). I've used 30ml of Vinegar to a ½ teaspoon of Ca(OH)2 per liter of mix without any problem, but recommend about 15ml to those new to using Vinegar. This means that you still need to go easy on the stirring, because we are not providing quite enough equivalent CO2 to avoid SOME Carbonate ion formation if we get carried away with the mixing. As to your question about using Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid, or L-3-Ketothreohexuronic Acid Lactone) instead of Acetic Acid, its chemical formula is C6H8O6, compared to C2H4O2 (commonly written CH3COOH) for Acetic Acid. The real story for us here though is in the atomic STRUCTURE of the two, rather than just in their FORMULAS. While Acetic Acid is essentially just an Acetate ion (CH3CO2-) with an extra Hydrogen atom tacked on, Vitamin C has an alkene ring, 4 alcohols, and an ester in its structure. I can't say with certainty all the complex organic chemistry that dissolving L-Ascorbic Acid would kick off in one's tank, or whether it would be good or bad, but I think I'll let someone else perform that particular experiment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you use Acetic Acid from a chemical company, buy a concentration of 5 per centAcetic Acid in water (an aqueous solution). If you use Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store, look for an "acidity" of 5 per cent on the label. Never use any colored or flavored or Apple Vinegars. "Kalk" powder is either lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (Calcium Hydroxide) from a chemical company, Kalkwasser Mix from an aquarium supplier, or Pickling Lime from the grocery store. It's all about the same. Use 1/2 teaspoon of the powder per quart of solution -- maybe a bit more if you use Pickling Lime from the grocery store, which is less Calcium by weight than the other sources. Some words of caution, especially for any reefkeeping newbies out there -- If you are using Vinegar in your Kalk mix for the first time, I'd start off with 5 ml per quart at first. If you find you still need to get more Calcium into your tank per unit Kalkwasser, work up over a couple of weeks to a max of 12-15 ml per quart (the stoichiometric amount for Carbonate as recommended by Craig Bingman), or if you are feeling brave or really need lots of extra Calcium and de-Nitrate action as I do, a max of 24-30 ml (the stoichiometric amount for Bicarbonate, which I use). Don't go whole-hog on the Vinegar from the start until you are sure your tank needs it and will take it without experiencing radical changes in pH, Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, and the health of your critters and your Nitrifying bacteria. Measure ph, Alk, Calcium, Magnesium, and Nitrates with Salifert kits as you work up to more Vinegar. Observe your livestock, especially if you have any really delicate corals or fish, to see that they behave normally as you use more Vinegar. My tanks have very little evaporation, so I have to use lots of Vinegar to put in lots of Calcium with very little makeup water. If your tanks have tons of evaporation, use less Vinegar per volume since you don't need such a high Calcium boost per unit of Kalk water. As with all things reefing, go slow, observe the reaction of your tank to any changes in what you add every week, and understand what and why you are doing. I don't want anyone coming back here on the board and blaming me for their fish that died when they poured 1000ml of Glacial Acetic Acid into their 55 gallon tank! My methods are safe for me in my tanks -- your mileage may vary, so use due care.
Quiubo Leopard y Ricardod Bien por esa mi estimado Carlos!!! Gracias. Bastante interesante el articulin (por cierto, si tienes la dirección de donde está se agradecería)... Creo que necesito unos test para empezar a ver como me funciona el asunto. No me deja tranquilo la idea pero parece muy bueno por lo de CO2 para las bacterias... sin duda vale la pena intentarlo. Solo no pierdan de vista la ultima linea "My methods are safe for me in my tanks -- your mileage may vary, so use due care." saludos
Que tal JL, me da gusto saludarte por acá, la dirección no la tengo, pues el artículo lo tengo en mi PC, pero en reefs.org tal vez lo puedas jalar. El de Randy Holmes que menciona Leopard es mu bueno, estoy seguro que lo tengo guardado pero no lo encuentro, tal vez Leopard nos pueda ayudar con el Link. :dance
Jlserr, el link de este articulo traducido esta en la primer pagina de este topic, y en tonces vas a mezclar vinagre con kalk?? Leopard muchas gracias y leere todos los articulos, en donde los puedo encontrar??
Mira Alex, no recuerdo bien, pero en reefcentral hay un foro exclusivo de Randy, ahí encontrarás todas las respuestas a tus preguntas de quimica. saludos
en estas dos direcciones hay articulos de randy que buena ventaja para los que leen ingles y mas aun, le entienden a la quimica advanced aquarist's on line magazine www.advancedaquarist.com www.reefkeeping.com pasan lo que aprendan, no? saludos
muchas gracias leopard. dem si necesitas los articulos en español dejame intentar traducirlo y te lo envio
muchisisimas gracias, ya que enntiendo un poco de ingles, pero de quimica en ingles nada adly: los estare esperando con ansia saludos
que tal, a los que les interes traduci el articulo de Randy sobre alkalinidad y Calcio si lo quieren digan y se los mando
Hola Alex. Pues a mi si mi interesan te agradeceria mucho si me los mandas. dragulav2@hotmail.com Saludos...
